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The Greatest American - The Big Vote

As you might have heard, The Discovery Channel is leaving it to the American voting public to determine who is the greatest American of all time and you know what?  It's a complete joke.  I mean, just look at their top-100.  It includes the following people:

Laura Bush, Barbara Bush, Madonna, Tom Cruise, Ellen DeGeneres, John Edwards, Brett Favre, Mel Gibson, Michael Jackson, Barack Obama and Dr. Phil (among other silly choices). 

Can it be that our American history is so impoverished, our national achievements so meager that these people can be counted among the 100 greatest Americans to ever live?  I don't think so.  It simply cannot be.  With your help, we'll prove it.  I propose that we run a poll of our own.  Here's how it will work.  We will have 5 polls with 20 choices each and people will be able to vote in each of the five polls once per day until voting closes in 30 days.  At that time, the 20 top vote getters will be placed in a poll and there will be one week of voting with people being able to vote once per day for their favorite(s).  After one week, the greatest American (as determined by TDB readers, who, I trust, are a bit smarter than the population at large) will be announced.

However, before we get going, I'm going to need your help in selecting our starting 100.  Here is my initial list of people who I think probably deserve to be in the running (a few people, such as the Wright Brothers and Rodgers & Hammerstein, will be grouped together; people who are known by a famous pseudonym will be listed by their familiar moniker (e.g. Dr. Seuss, O Henry, Mark Twain, etc.)) ... everyone with an asterisk next to their name was not included in the Discovery Channel List, which favored people like Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore:

1.       Samuel Adams*
2.       Fred Astaire*
3.       Louis Armstrong*
4.       Neil Armstrong
5.       Lucille Ball
6.       Alexander Graham Bell
7.       Irving Berlin*
8.       Louis Brandeis*
9.       Marlon Brando*
10.   Andrew Carnegie
11.   Johnny Carson
12.   George Washington Carver
13.   e. e. cummings*
14.   Cecil B. DeMille*
15.   Emily Dickinson*
16.   Walt Disney
17.   Frederick Douglass
18.   Thomas Edison
19.   Albert Einstein
20.   Dwight Eisenhower
21.   Duke Ellington*
22.   Ralph Waldo Emerson*
23.   Henry Ford
24.   Benjamin Franklin
25.   Robert Frost*
26.   George Gershwin and Ira Gershwin*
27.   Cary Grant*
28.   Ulysses S. Grant*
29.   Alexander Hamilton
30.   Learned Hand*
31.   Hugh Hefner
32.   Ernest Hemingway*
33.   O. Henry*
34.   Patrick Henry
35.   Katherine Hepburn
36.   Alfred Hitchcock*
37.   Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.*
38.   Bob Hope
39.   Howard Hughes
40.   Langston Hughes*
41.   Andrew Jackson*
42. Thomas Jefferson
43.   Martin Luther King, Jr.
44.   Henry Kissinger*
45.   Hedy Lamarr*
46.   Abraham Lincoln
47.   Jack London*
48.   Henry Wadsworth Longfellow*
49.   Joe Louis*
50.   Douglas MacArthur*
51.   James Madison*
52.   George Marshall*
53.   John Marshall*
54.   Thurgood Marshall*
55.   Arthur Miller*
56.   Henry Miller*
57.   J.P. Morgan*
58.   Samuel F. B. Morse*
59.   Audie Murphy
60.   Paul Newman*
61.   Robert Oppenheimer*
62.   Jesse Owens
63.   Thomas Paine*
64.   George Patton
65.   John Pershing*
66.   Edgar Allen Poe*
67.   James Polk*
68.   Cole Porter*
69.   Elvis Presley
70.   Ayn Rand*
71.   Ronald Reagan
72.   Paul Revere*
73.   Jackie Robinson
74.   John D. Rockefeller*
75.   Norman Rockwell*
76.   Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein*
77.   Franklin Roosevelt
78.   Theodore Roosevelt
79.   Babe Ruth
80.   Jonas Salk
81.   Dr. Seuss*
82.   William Tecumseh Sherman*
83.   Frank Sinatra
84.   Steven Spielberg
85.   Benjamin Spock*
86.   John Steinbeck*
87.   Jimmy Stewart
88.   Edward Teller*
89.   Nikola Tesla
90.   Henry David Thoreau*
91.   Jim Thorpe*
92.   Harry Truman
93.   Mark Twain
94.   Earl Warren*
95.   George Washington
96.   Orson Welles*
97.   George Westinghouse*
98.   Walt Whitman*
99.   Frank Lloyd Wright*
100. Orville Wright and Wilbur Wright

So here they are ... my initial list for the 100 greatest Americans.  Clearly, as with any such list, there are borderline figures who made the list and there are many borderline figures who arguably deserve to but didn't (e.g. John Jay, Leonard Bernstein, Henry Mancini, Susan B. Anthony, Marilyn Monroe, Jimi Hendrix, Mohammed Ali, Frank Zappa, Jerome Kern, Thelonius Monk, Herman Melville, Stephen King, Humphrey Bogart, Colin Powell, James Whistler, John Sargent, Andy Warhol, etc.).  I would like your input.  Who did I omit who absolutely has to be included (and instead of who)?  Who was included who has no business whatsoever on the list (and who would you replace him or her with)?  I'll give it a couple of days and then, once the list is finalized, I'll put up the polls.  Thank you in advance and please participate.

Update:  Unbeknownst to yours truly, a whole bunch of bloggers compiled their own lists of greatest Americans in the past few days.  Some of these lists can be found at:

Betsy's Page 
Res et Rationes
Conservative Response
This Blog Is Full Of Crap
Don Singleton
Iowa Voice
Right Wing Nuthouse
Isaac Schrödinger
John In Carolina
Bookworm Room
Right Wing News
Reasoned Audacity
Jeff of The Shape of Days reminds us to not forget Norman Bralaug. 

Posted by: Jheka at June 12, 2005 13:48 | link | comments (61) |
greatest hits, miscellaneous musings

Comments:

#1  12 June 2005 - 14:42

 

Thomas Jefferson.

Anonymous

#2  12 June 2005 - 14:47

 

Um, whoops! Jefferson was on the list ... I don't know how he got deleted. Now I have to remove someone ... I think that Jackson Pollock has to go.

Jheka

#3  12 June 2005 - 14:55

 

What about Benjamin Cardozo?

Anonymous

#4  12 June 2005 - 15:54

 

Have you read Killer Angels by Michael Shaara? I vote that you replace Sherman with Robert E. Lee.

InMyLife

#5  12 June 2005 - 15:57

 

And you must reinstate Pollock! Art is important. The list needs balance.

InMyLife

#6  12 June 2005 - 17:44

 

While Sherman is admittedly a borderline choice (for me, at least), the fact is that he fought to preserve the Union while Lee fought on the side that sought to rend it. While Lee is undoubtedly among the finest generals this nation has ever produced and was, by most accounts, a fine man, I don't know if you get to be among the 100 greatest Americans if your greatest achievement was leading armies against the United States of America.

As for Pollock, who would you eliminate so that he can be put back? Sherman, perhaps? I note that the list includes many great artists ... just not many painters ... I don't think that painters (as opposed to, say, musicians, actors, etc.) are a particular American strength.

Jheka

#7  12 June 2005 - 18:06

 

Jheka
Kate Hepburn was a fine actress, and Brando a great actor, but I'm not sure they belong on this list. You should add DOLLEY MADISON. It was DOLLEY who saved the US Gov't's documents and the Gilbert Stuart portrait of Washington when the Capitol City was burned by the British in 1814, barely escaping as the city was fired. Dolley also served as Thomas Jefferson's First Lady, since TJ was unmarried and she did much of the original decor in the White House.

And what about LAURA BUSH? If not for her steadying influence, would the President even BE Presidnet today?

Those two ladies may not end up as the Greatest American, but they sure deserve to be in the running.

And what about the American Soldier?

I agree with InMyLife, replace Sherman with Robert E Lee.

Sandspur

Anonymous

#8  12 June 2005 - 18:38

 

Just off the top of my head
Meriwether Lewis
William Clark
more to come as I think about it.

Yolocowboy

#9  12 June 2005 - 18:59

 

Kate Hepburn was maybe the last one added, so I am not adverse to removing her (all updates will be made in a couple of days when people have had their say). She did win more best actress Oscars than anyone else. As for Brando, he is widely acknowledged as the greatest film actor of the 20th Century, so I'd be inclined to keep him on the list.

Laura Bush? I don't think so. If you include first ladies (and I am not inclined to do so without some other significant achievement), I believe that you'd have to include Eleanor Roosevelt, Hillary Clinton, Jacqueline Kennedy and before you included Laura Bush. I don't think that keeping someone else from being a schmuck all of their lives qualifies someone as one of the 100 greatest Americans of all time. I mean, if George W. isn't on the list (and I don't think that he belongs ... he might one day, but not yet, IMO), then how do you include Laura?

If we are to pick a First Lady, my instinct is to go with Eleanor Roosevelt or Edith Wilson, who acted for Wilson while he was disabled, or maybe even Dolley Madison but probably not Laura Bush.

As for Lee, note my comment above. I am willing to be convinced, but I don't see how he qualifies as a great American.

Oh, and unlogged visitor: I considered Cardozo but is he really more significant than Brandeis or Warren or Holmes or either Marshall or even Learned Hand? I'm kinda heavy on the judges, I think. If I include Cardozo, who do I jettison?

Jheka

#10  12 June 2005 - 19:02

 

Hmmm ... Lewis and Clark as a pair is a good call ... instead of who, do you think?

Jheka

#11  12 June 2005 - 19:04

 

Susan B Anthony

Theodore Judah (look him up)

Chuck Yeager 12.5 planes shot down, fastest man alive.

Chester Nimitz

Miles davis

I know there are more, but to add, one must subtract.

Yolocowboy

#12  12 June 2005 - 19:08

 

Yup, it's the subtraction that's tough. I think that it's safe to say that the U.S. has produced far more than 100 great men and women. That's why the Discovery Channel list, with Madonna, Rush Limbaugh, John Edwards, Michael Moore, Dr. Phil, etc. is so appalling.

I mean, seriously, Tom Cruise but not Marlon Brando? Please.

Jheka

#13  12 June 2005 - 20:15

 

Glenn Curtiss

He did far more to advance aviation in America than the Wright Bros., who spent most of their time after 1903 suing anyone else who made a flying machine.

Anonymous

#14  12 June 2005 - 21:57

 

Glenn Curtiss instead of the Wright Brothers? Sounds reasonable. Thoughts?

I note a sad lack of journalists in the list. I think I'll add H.L. Mencken ... and perhaps Joseph Pulitzer ... and maybe Dan Rather ... ok, just kidding about that last one. But who to remove to make room? Maybe Learned Hand. I mean, is there anyone who didn't go to law school who's ever heard of him?

Keep the comments coming, folks.

Jheka

#15  12 June 2005 - 22:36

 

Would it be more accurate to only include native born Americans? I mean, wouldn't Einstein or Tesla have been great men regardless? How much of an influence do you think America had on their genius?

Anonymous

#16  12 June 2005 - 22:37

 

Of course, that would create some issues with the founding fathers, but...?

Anonymous

#17  12 June 2005 - 22:49

 

Hey, some of us naturalized Americans still think of ourselves as Americans, you know. And I'm not sure how much you would have heard from Einstein had he remained in Germany. Take a look at the list. It's chock-full of naturalized citizens, including Bob Hope, Alfred Hitchcock, Edward Teller, Ayn Rand, Hedy LaMarr, Henry Kissinger, Alexander Graham Bell and Cary Grant. Would some of them have achieved greatness with or without the United States? Maybe. All of them and to the degree that they did? Not a chance.

In any case, they are Americans and they are great and thus they qualify. Now, if all or most of their great achievements were accomplished before they came to America, there might be an issue.

Jheka

#18  13 June 2005 - 01:05

 

The Wright Brothers need to be on the list because their machine was so original nothing like it had ever been seen before.

Curtiss designs made improvements on the Wright Bros. design.

Also, perhaps too many actors on this list? Hollywood personalities advanced American civilization how?

Henry Clay (unless I missed him) was almost singlehandedly responsible for keeping the Union together from 1821 - 1852.

Werner Von Braun ran the space program that reached the moon.

Rogers and Hammerstein revolutionized Broadway and virtually invented a new art form - musical theater.

Anonymous

#19  13 June 2005 - 01:22

 

Hollywood is an integral and unique part of American culture. There never has been and there isn't currently anything like it in the world. American cinema has not only defined and shaped our culture, it has, more than any other medium, defined and shaped world culture in America's image. Its global influence is massive. However, how much any individual actor affected it is debatable. People like Jimmy Stewart and John Wayne and Clint Eastwood (the latter two did not make my list) defined how much of the world saw America and Americans. Steven Speilberg is arguably the greatest entertainer of the masses of all time and of any era, though Shakespeare's fans might beg to differ.

I'll look into including Clay and Von Braun.

Jheka

#20  13 June 2005 - 04:18

 

To answer the question you posted on my blog, I certainly think that GWB belongs in the list.

If I was going to make a top 100 list it would have included people like Mother Tereasa and Pope John Paul and I would not have included Fred Astaire, Louis Armstrong, e. e. cummings, Cecil B. DeMille, Hugh Heffner, Hedy Lamarr, Joe Lewis, Paul Newman, Elvis Presley, Dr. Seuss, and others.

Anonymous

#21  13 June 2005 - 07:02

 

Don:

It's a list of top 100 Americans. Mother Teresa and the Pope don't qualify, unless they managed to pull off a miracle involving the INS. As for GWB, I'm not a detractor but wouldn't you agree that he's a work in progress? Who knows where he will rank among Americans, Presidents, etc. in a few years.

Jheka

#22  13 June 2005 - 07:35

 

Just sent a trackback ping with a long rumination on your list. Shorter version

Add or promote:
Norman Borlaug
James Bryant Conant
Frank Capra
Lewis and Clark
Melville
Thomas Hunt Morgan
Linus Pauling

Demote
Lucy
Johnny Carson
Einstein (obviously great but greatness predates US citizenship)
Hitchcock (Closer call on INS issues, but self-ID'd as a Brit, I think)
Henry Miller
Paul Newman
Jimmy Stewart

I agree with you about W.

Anonymous

#23  13 June 2005 - 07:36

 

What about Smokey Joe Martin? He was a famous FDNY assistant chief, and the namesake for Smokey the Bear.

AmericanGirl

#24  13 June 2005 - 09:38

 

george w. bush? why him? 100 GREATEST?? I don't know about that one. And not even because I'm liberal, but when I think about the 100 greatest Americans, he just doesn't pop into my head. Unless the poll is for who was a really good American, and not simply a sucessful one. If we're picking a really really good American, I would say...veterans and current servicemen. Those are really great Americans. They served their country. Hey, they were person of the year a while back. They should be on the list.

Anywho, Weingarten, a WaPo humor columnist wrote about this a few weeks back. It's funny stuff. He also holds a weekly chat, and many people discussed why the list had such crap names. One theory: The initial write in vote only allowed a single person to put in three nominations. So assuming most people entered in standard stuff like Wasington, Jefferson, Hancock, what have you, then if a single person happened to throw in Dr. Phil, it would make the list because they needed 100 nominees to make the initial list. Does that make sense?

DJGroovySlug

#25  13 June 2005 - 09:53

 

You'll note that W. is not on my list. As for the troops, I'm sticking to identifiable individuals. Someone on another blog suggested the Flight 93 passengers because they potentially saved the government. It's an interesting suggestion but, IMO, a bit speculative and vague as to who, exactly, acted in a way to merit being classified as "great." Your theory re: Dr. Phil makes sense. Nevertheless, whoever wrote him in (and Madonna and Michael Moore and Barbara Bush and John Edwards and ... well, you get the idea) should be identified and immediately gitmoed before they drag down the national IQ any further.

I do think that Jim Hu's suggestions (comment #22) are pretty good, on the whole, though I don't see myself removing Jimmy Stewart from the list. However, room will have to be made for Norman Borlaug and Lewis and Clark.

What all of this tells me is that you can easily (easily!) have a top 200 or 300 or 500 list of great Americans without even considering a third of the people on the Discovery Channel list. Some of them wouldn't make a legitimate top 50,000 list.

Jheka

#26  13 June 2005 - 11:43

 

I agonized over suggesting Jimmy Stewart for demotion since I love watching his work, and he was probably my father's favorite star. With the non-Capra films - esp. the ones he did with Hitchcock (Vertigo, Rear Window, Rope) plus Philadelphia Story, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, Harvey, and so on...plus his being a genuine WWII hero...I certainly won't argue with you even though I think his long-term impact is strongest from the Capra classics.

This brings in the obvious issues of what greatness means, of course...how impact and personal character are balanced in picking someone for the list.

Re: your comment about some of the Discovery Channel ones not even making the top 50K - LOL. Absolutely! It might actually be amusing to set up a database for the 50K Americans greater than *fill in the worst nominee* from the Discovery Channel list, but I bet it would be a pain to manage.

A more manageable poll would be: "who is the worst nominee on the Discovery Channel list?" I'm leaning toward Dr. Phil myself, but there are probably interesting arguments why others might be worse.

-Jim Hu

Anonymous

#27  13 June 2005 - 11:46

 

I think Fred Rogers would be a good candidate for the top 100. His work with children alone makes him worth a mention, but his great compassion, and the examplary way his life was lived (by any standard) seals it. I would demote Hugh Heffner or Henry Miller. They were both big in breaking sexual taboos, but I don't know if the list needs both. I'd keep Miller if only for the legal framework that came from the Supreme Court decisions. I guess it all depends on the definition of "greatest". I know why Henry Ford is on almost every list, but I would drop him since he was an anti-Semitic Nazi apologist (as were a lot)...but anyway Fred Rogers...

Anonymous

#28  13 June 2005 - 11:54

 

Jimmy Stewart's WWII service really separates him from other actors for me.

Fred Rogers is right there for me ... hovering somewhere between 95 and 105 ... Quite a few people on the list were really unsavory in their personal lives/political views ... If I recall, we have a few socialists, a couple of communists, a handful of anti-Semites and racists, a Nazi sympathizer or two and one or two anarchists ... c'est la vie.

BTW, with the verdict about to be read, I note that Michael Jackson was on the top 100 Americans list ... I knew that I should have written myself in ...

Jheka

#29  13 June 2005 - 14:24

 

It doesnt get any more American than Nascar, wheres Richard Petty or Rusty Wallace?

rustymadgal

#30  13 June 2005 - 14:24

 

How about Sam Houston? I'd bump Hefner to make room, but a few of the entertainers would do as well.

Anonymous

#31  13 June 2005 - 14:49

 

There's a special place in my, um, heart for Hef ... though, with all of the good suggestions, he might wind up being bumped.

Richard Petty? Does he play with The Heartbrakers?

Rusty Wallace? He plays for the Pistons, right?

Jheka

#32  13 June 2005 - 14:50

 

If entertainers are going to be on the list, then why not add John Wayne?

What about Will Rogers? He wasn't called "America's Favorite Son" for nothing.

- Submitted by Dodo David

Anonymous

#33  13 June 2005 - 14:58

 

I just don't think that Wayne, even though he was certainly an American icon, had the long term impact, nationally or globally, of the other entertainers on the list, though it's certainly debatable. Ditto for Will Rogers. That said, I'll take a look at both of them before compiling the final list. Who would you bump for their spaces?

Jheka

#34  13 June 2005 - 14:59

 

I think you should take all of the entertainers off. Let them have their own list, something like "The Greatest Entertainers" but having an acting job doesn't necessarily make one a great American.

And no Rosa Parks?

AmericanGirl

#35  13 June 2005 - 14:59

 

Ok. I knew their list would be slanted with names of recent celebrities that their younger, internet savvy audience would recognize - but seriously, John Edwards? Wasn't there one person on their selection committee with a sense of perspective? An iota of judgement or common sense? A conscience, for crying out loud?

Anonymous

#36  13 June 2005 - 15:09

 

Remove the entertainers? No way. American culture, which is unique in the world (and which is the chief vehicle for spreading American values) is important (it's what all of the generals and Presidents and activists strove to promote and preserve) and the entertainers are the ambassadors of it. They change the world by what they do. Bob Hope was important. Steven Spielberg, as I said before, has entertained and, to a degree, influenced more people than perhaps anyone else in the 20th century. Mark Twain, Walt Whitman, Jimmy Stewart, Norman Rockwell, etc. not only recorded and expressed our values and culture, they helped mold them for the better and remain, to this day, some of America's most influential ambassadors to the rest of the world.

We are more than borders and armies and capitalism. We are Tom Sawyer and Catcher In The Rye and Leaves of Grass and Raiders of The Lost Ark and It's a Wonderful Life and Death of a Salesman and The Four Freedoms. It is those things, more than McDonalds or Microsoft or our court system that make children and adults around the world dream of coming to America ... the portraits, in books and on film and even on canvas, of what America is and can be.

OK, getting off of the soapbox :) .

Jheka

#37  13 June 2005 - 15:10

 

The Wright Brothers embodied the spirit of invention that helped make America a leading nation. I say they must stay.

As to your argument against Robert E. Lee, wasn't America founded by people who were, in fact, secessionists?

How about replacing Hedy Lamarr with Pollock?

InMyLife

#38  13 June 2005 - 15:11

 

Well I knew you wouldn't do it, but heck, you asked for opinions. :P LOL

AmericanGirl

#39  13 June 2005 - 15:13

 

Oh, and as for Rosa Parks, I don't know. Maybe top 300. She did one thing in her life. It was a courageous thing and it provided an important spark but still, one thing. It's not as if the Freedom rides and Brown vs. Board of Education and the marches on Washington wouldn't have happened but for her courageous act of defiance. She's a great American. Just not, IMO, among the 100 greatest.

Jheka

#40  13 June 2005 - 15:16

 

I would like to point out that Hedy LaMarr was much hotter than the great splatterer :) .

AG: Oh, I welcome opinions ... I don't want to make it sound like I don't ... but you wouldn't seriously want me to take Elvis off of the list, would you?

Jheka

#41  13 June 2005 - 15:21

 

Oh by all means don't take Elvis off. We must continue to applaud those who toss their talent into a downward spiral of drug and alcohol abuse.

Just busting your chops, Jheka. :) Haven't I earned that right?

As for Rosa Parks - you try doing what she did and see how you feel about someone referring to it as "Just one thing".

AmericanGirl

#42  13 June 2005 - 15:25

 

OHMYGOD

If hotness is one of your criteria, shame on you, Jheka. And you didn't address my point on Lee.

But I like your soapbox stance. I'm right up there with you. Artists stay.

InMyLife

#43  13 June 2005 - 15:38

 

AG:

Like I said, it was courageous but it also wasn't unique ... there were many courageous gestures at that time ... she got lucky to not be hurt as a result of hers and that it gained international attention. I feel about her the way I feel about Pat Tillman (another Discovery Channel top-100 selection) ... a great American who did a wonderful and personally courageous thing but not one of the greatest of all time.

InMyLife:

On close calls, hotness is a good tie-breaker :) ... seriously, Hedy Lamar was remarkable. Check out the bio.

As for Lee, the founding fathers weren't trying to secede or damage the United States. I don't expect to see Jefferson and Washington and Franklin on a list of 100 greatest Brits. Besides, I'm not convinced tat the revolutionaries were very much in the right. It turned out pretty well but let's face it; they were a bunch of men who didn't want to pay their taxes ("no taxation without representation" was a crock ... had they had representation (and it might have been offered), they would have been outvoted ... besides, under that logic, D.C. should try to secede).

Also, Lee wasn't nearly as hot as Hedy LaMarr. If he was ...

Jheka

#44  13 June 2005 - 17:10

 

I'm divided on the Rosa Parks issue. I can see both sides easily. However, to simply say that Martin Luther King Jr. should be the sole representative of the civil rights movement would misrepresent the amount of amazing African American figures in our history. What about figures of the Harlem Renaissance who began to break barriers regarding art and race: Langston Hughes, of course, since he was wildly popular and became one of America's first major black celebrities. And I'm not just saying him b/c I wrote my senior thesis on him. There's also DuBois, Carver, Frederick Douglass, and Malcolm X. I'm not saying add all of them but I feel those names are more important and influential than some of the names, like e.e. cummings, who is influential, IMO, because of his revolutionary style alone. But better than Douglass? Strech.

DJGroovySlug

#45  13 June 2005 - 17:26

 

Let's see ... My list, as it is right now, includes the following black Americans Martin Luther King, Jr., Langston Hughes, Frederick Douglass, George Washington Carver, Jackie Robinson, Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Jesse Owens, Thurgood Marshall and Joe Louis. All of them made great contributions to race relations (as did Jim Thorpe, who was a Native American). All of their contributions were, IMO, more significant and over a longer period of time than Rosa Parks, in addition to the contributions that they made in their own fields (only MLK and Douglass were primarily concerned with civil rights). Race relations might be where they are now even if there had never been a Rosa Parks, who was, after her brave act of defiance, a symbol. Jazz would not be what it is without Armstrong and Ellington. American Poetry would be poorer without Hughes (and Gwendolyn Brooks and several others). Turgood Marshall was more than a symbol and Joe Louis was one of the greatest fighters of all time (if I had another hundred spaces, I'd find a spot for Jack Johnson). Honestly, I think I'd include Harriet Tubman ahead of Rosa Parks, if I were to include either one.

Jheka

#46  13 June 2005 - 18:16

 

I would definitely bump Lucy Ball for Charlton Heston.

And as for a specific soldier, I'm really surprised that Pat Tillman is not listed.

Anonymous

#47  13 June 2005 - 19:07

 

Johnny Cash instead of Elvis! Ella Fitzgerald, Lou Reed, George Gershwin, Jack Nicholson, Martin Scorsese, Orson Welles... Golda Meir? Martha Graham, Vladimir Nabokov (a naturalized American)... Andy Warhol is a good idea.

veebee

Anonymous

#48  13 June 2005 - 19:07

 

It takes an idiot not to see that Hedy Lamarr was a truly great American whose vision was way ahead of her time.

She was a sexy lady, unfortunately that was all that most could see of her.

Your cell phone and wireless communications of all kinds owe a huge debt of gratitude to her vision. Our own mighty Army was too short-sighted to see that her invention could have been used to shorten the second great war, and she never complained about making not a single penny off of one of the most significant inventions of the 20th century.

Hedy rules, period. And a lot of billionaires that people admire today are mere administrators of what she created. I'm not sure that John Rockefeller created more wealth, but I'm pretty certain who had far greater class and style, and humble acceptance of her dilemna. She was a lady's lady.

Anonymous

#49  13 June 2005 - 20:23

 

"As to your argument against Robert E. Lee, wasn't America founded by people who were, in fact, secessionists?"

Yes it was, and nobody would put George Washington on a list of the greatest Englishmen of all time. Washington was an Englishman for most of his life, and was a great man, but the fact that he rebelled against England precludes him from inclusion on any such list. The same is true of R.E. Lee with respect to America.

Anonymous

#50  13 June 2005 - 22:32

 

John Ford needs to be on the list...The Great American Film Director of Americana and The West...his vision of historical America, and the use of the red filter with black and white film, gave us the beauty of the American West and his direction of many of the actors on your list turned them into Hollywood Stars..."Stagecoach" is only one example...

Anonymous

#51  14 June 2005 - 01:07

 

Agree with adding John Ford and Frank Capra. Their films really helped define the image of the US in the world. And how about comedians like W.C. Fields and Groucho Marx (the latter especially.)? They helped keep America (and the rest of the world) laughing during hard times. As to who to drop, I just don't see how boxers can be claimed to have made a lasting positive contribution to a nation's greatness.

Anonymous

#52  14 June 2005 - 01:27

 

Are you kidding? Joe Louis united this nation and bridged the gap between the races as perhaps no one before him ever had. He was the first American athlete to be beloved and admired by all Americans, regardless of race. His second fight against German Max Schmeling (a great man in his own right) in 1938 was an international event with significant political implications.

Until Jackie Robinson joined the Brooklyn Dodgers years later, no popular sports or entertainment figure did more to bring Americans of all races and economic classes together than The Brown Bomber, Joe Louis.

Jheka

#53  14 June 2005 - 04:55

 

Clearly John Adams was a huge figure in American history, who deserves to be above Johnny Carson. He secured the loans and treaties that created this nation. He is largely responsible for our system of government. The way he conducted himself as a politician was a model that we SHOULD be following today. In my book he's above MANY of the people on the list.

Johnny Carson is funny and all, but he's no John Adams. In 50 year Carson will probably be all but forgotton, and John Adams will not. I would go so far as to say that without Adams' personality and abrasive nature, we might not have been unable to get the loans we needed from the Dutch, and the peace we needed from the Brits.

Anonymous

#54  14 June 2005 - 08:36

 

My view on Tillman is close to my view on Rosa Parks. I admire the man and am thankful for his actions and his sacrifice but he doesn't rate, IMO, as one of the top 100 Americans of all time.

John Ford is a close call, as is Capra. Johnny Carson? Carson contributed to national cohesion, which this country has always badly needed, because he was a rare public figure that virtually everybody liked. Who can you say that about today (especially if they appear virtually every day)?

veebee:

Johnny Cash and Ella would likely be in my next hundred. Gershwin is on the list, as is Welles. Nicholson? Maybe top 300 or 400 (I'd put Eastwood, Wayne, Hanks and maybe Pacino ahead of him). Scorsese is a close call. He'd probably make my top 150. Lou Reed? I don't know where he ranks. Not top-100, though. Golda Meir was a U.S. citizen but her greatest accomplishments were realized after she had renounced that citizenship. Nabokov Graham and Warhol would all make a top-300 list. They would definitely finish well above Ellen DeGeneres, Dr. Phil and Brett Favre.

Why is everyone intent on bumping Lucy? The woman was a comic genius. Am I alone in thinking this?

Jheka

#55  14 June 2005 - 10:22

 

The problem with all these lists, of course, is that their not sufficiently particularized. I hate calling athletes heroes, because they're not, even while I may admire their accomplishments. The question really should be greatest at what? I think I'll have to start specialized lists on my blog: greatest statesman, greatest scientist, greatest composer, greatest entertainer, greatest warrior, etc. Otherwise, it seems trifling to put George Gerswhin on the same list as John Adams, despite each man's manifest abilities, and despite the fact that each made a huge contribution to our culture.

Anonymous

#56  14 June 2005 - 10:24

 

I have to disagree about Cash and Nicholson. Cash is one of the most influential songwriters of the 20th century revered by musicians working in a wide variety of musical genres. Nicholson is one of the most interesting film actors in the world. His performances are moving, and he has such a great range of expression.

...Lou Reed is proto-punk; he's a great influence on what's going on in popular music from the 70s on. Perhaps he's a little too recent to add to the list... In which case you have to add Warhol, a deserving ironic pop-art persona!!!

I thin you should consider bumping Henry Ford. A management genius, yes, but too much of an anti-Semite to be a great American.

Anonymous

#57  14 June 2005 - 21:46

 

If by "American" you mean "citizen of the United States of America," then of course Lee is excluded by definition. (Though wasn't his citizenship posthumously "restored" about thirty years ago?) This is reasonable, just so long as it is understood that nationality is the grounds for exclusion here, not any doubts about his claims to greatness. (I personally would rate him, for ability, character, integrity and humanity, among the top 100 human beings of all time - but that would be another list!)

Anonymous

#58  14 June 2005 - 21:56

 

Actually, I do believe that the members of the Confederacy, from generals to foot soldiers, were still considered U.S. citizens by the Union, even while the war was going on. It's not as if the entire South lost its citizenship rights, voting privileges, etc. upon either the start or conclusion of hostilities. We certainly didn't re-naturalize all of them.

Jheka

#59  14 June 2005 - 23:10

 

I would humbly submit that De Witt Clinton belongs on this list. Seems to be a definite dearth of governors on all these lists.
And Lindsay Lohan.

Anonymous

#60  14 June 2005 - 23:31

 

I'm afraid that nominations are closed and voting has begun (please vote if you avn'e done s already today). Otherwise, I have little doubt that Lindsay Lohan would have made the list.

As for governors, there are at least a couple on this list. Reagan and both Roosevelts come to mind.

Jheka

#61  16 June 2005 - 00:42

 

I can't understand why William James is never mentioned

Anonymous

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